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Talk:Set trap
Skill Mastery The Skill Mastery feat allows you to take 20 while in combat, but someone changed the Set Trap description to say it also prevents traps from going off when setting them in combat. Is that correct? If they fail the roll (even with take 20) in combat, wouldn't the trap still backfire? -- Austicke 10:44, 13 Oct 2005 (PDT) *I don know, but when u "take 20", I don't think there is a roll anymore. --Defunc7 11:29, 13 Oct 2005 (PDT) *I checked, and it does appear that Skill Mastery does in fact prevent a trap from going off in the case of a Spectacular Failure in combat. On the other hand, I think this is more of an oversight than an intended feature, so I think I'll move that bit down to the Notes. --The Krit 18:29, 23 Nov 2005 (PST) DCs What DC is the trap against the foes? I.e. if the Craft trap gives a DC of 40 for a deadly trap, will the foe then have DC 40 to avoid the trap? -- 24 March 2006 *I finally added the DCs for these traps. --The Krit 21:41, 6 May 2006 (PDT) Clarification needed "Special: Wearing armor may incur a penalty to the roll. " Is this a max dex reference? Or some mal to the roll based on Armor Check penalty? What are the details on this? Any sentence with "may" implies more information is needed. --Fitz10019 26 April 2006 * Fitz, sorry that the wording was ambiguous. I thought linking "penalty" to armor check penalty would be clear enough. I guess not. I also realize now that I should have added that bit to the Notes because it's missing from the BioWare description. That's done now. --The Krit 21:41, 6 May 2006 (PDT) ?? Detect & Disarm DCs ?? "The skill added to the detect and disarm DCs is the setter's set trap skill (no die roll)." Okay. I've stared at this statement for over 2 years now without it sinking in. Let me try to understand this... The actual DC of a trap my trapper is facing while trying to disarm (or detect) it is determined by the skill level of the character which set it. Correct? So, if the skill of the trap setter is high enough my detector/disarmer will need to max the disarm skill to assure any can be detected and then disarmed. So, if a highly skilled trap setter sets a minor trap, the actual DC could be much higher than a deadly trap set by a trapper with much fewer ranks in Set Trap. This can't be right. Doesn't make sense. More intricate traps should automatically require a higher skill level to set them, take 20 or not. In the case of, say, the Acid Blob trap, there is no difference in the base value (i.e. 22) for all versions. I am confused. So, if all the traps have been set by the designer how would I figure out what skill level was assigned to the traps? For all I know, the designer may have added a max skill level on even the easiest traps, no? I'm sure I am interpreting this statement wrong but TBH I have no clue how it impacts the number of ranks to take on the disarm skill. I have just been maxing it up to now but if I don't need to, I would appreciate some guidance/interpretation as to how to determine what my character will need. TIA. --Iconclast 02:45, August 21, 2011 (UTC) * You've got it all right, including the part about it not making a lot of sense. As for traps set by the module builder (rather than traps set by a PC), there is no skill level associated -- the DCs are whatever the module builder specified in the Toolset. If the builder did not customize the DCs, they will be the DCs in the table with skill equal to zero. --The Krit 05:40, August 21, 2011 (UTC) Discrepancy, Epic trap defaults in Toolset There appears to be a difference between the DCs for epic traps in the table in this article and the actual default values in the toolset. When I set up traps using the standard epic traps, the disarm DC in-game is 36 (per game log), the same as a deadly version. The related 2da seems to support the table information but not in testing. There is a separate section in the trap properties that states "When set by a rogue", a different set of values that match the table DCs but this would not be the case if placed by a designer. Also, in my v1.69 HotU version, I cannot find either the sonic or frost epic traps so need some direction to locate them in the toolset. However, the electrical and fire versions are as stated above, 36 disarm value. edit: I found the missing sonic & frost epic traps. For some reason they list them in the Deadly Traps section. Not sure why, but they are there and have DCs set to the lower defaults as the other epic traps.--Iconclast 18:16, October 31, 2011 (UTC) Now, I can manually change the default DCs to match what is in the tables, but is this really how designers place the epic traps? Any clarification of what is happening when I place epic traps (with the actual logged DCs) and the apparent inconsistency with the wiki article would be appreciated.--Iconclast 14:25, October 31, 2011 (UTC) *The toolset traps are not considered by this article, as the DC can be manually adjusted to any value desired. What is considered is when one player character in multiplayer sets a trap and another player character goes to disarm/recover/examine it. Unfortunately since NPCs cannot set traps (ActionUseSkill() does not work for SKILL_SET_TRAP) this cannot be tested in SP.WhiZard 19:04, October 31, 2011 (UTC) :* It was TK's statement above " If the builder did not customize the DCs, they will be the DCs in the table with skill equal to zero." that led me to believe that the table values reflected the defaults set up in the toolset traps. All the other traps except epic ones are consistent with the table (as, Skill level=0) so perhaps it is just a coincidence that traps I have encountered as part of standard usage (i.e. without designer customization) coincide perfectly with the table values, except the epic ones. This does not seem immediately apparent (to me, at least) that the table values apply solely to traps set by PCs. Perhaps some sort of note to this issue would prevent others from misinterpreting what it is intended to convey? Just a thought.--Iconclast 00:29, November 1, 2011 (UTC) ::* Its not just the epic traps, a lot of standard Toolset traps have different values set than the .2da listing. The blueprint is where the DC is stored. When creating a trap from the "trigger wizard" the DC that pops up is based on the category of trap you selected (minor, average, deadly, or fatal) which is independent of the trap you later select. Each blueprint does list the modification bonus for player set traps, if you want to follow that, but a good number of standard traps do not. I suppose extra columns could be added to the set trap table for the Toolset instances, but unless there is an interest, I am not willing to go through all the blueprints to add in the DCs, especially when this might better belong in the trap article.WhiZard 00:54, November 1, 2011 (UTC) :::* I don't know how labor/time-effective that would be, Whizard. Seems like too much work to me. For my own edification, your answers are sufficient. It's grasping all the idiosyncrasies of the game resources and trying to make some sort of sense of them that takes time, like the differences you just pointed out. For my part, it's clear.--Iconclast 01:23, November 1, 2011 (UTC) ::* Sorry, I had thought I had double-checked all the trap blueprints against the table. Guess not. --The Krit 15:24, November 1, 2011 (UTC) *Actually, I just tested this in SP, having a non-rogue set the epic electric trap, and having the pixie familiar try to disarm it. The set trap skill was 49, making the disarm DC 107, the examine DC 100, and the flag DC 102 (the pixie could not recover by its settings), which confirms the table values. So the "when set by rogue" clause in the trap description for detect and disarm could simply mean "when set by a player character".WhiZard 19:26, October 31, 2011 (UTC) :* Yes. I had similar results when I tested the disarm DC constraint of a ranger attempting to disarm a trap set by a skilled rogue (#1). Only another rogue (#2) could disarm it even though both the ranger and the rogue had identical disarm skill levels. What was somewhat unexpected was that with a sufficiently high skill level, even a minor trap can be set that is impossible for all classes except rogue to disarm and it doesn't matter what class set it as long as the Set Trap skill used created a resultant DC over 34. In any event, thanks for the confirmation and clarification, WhiZard.--Iconclast 00:29, November 1, 2011 (UTC) :* I think this is not the only time BioWare wrote text under the assumption that trap setting and disabling would be only done by rogues, although I cannot think of another off the top of my head. (Well, maybe it is not fair to attribute this to BioWare -- as I recall, the D&D rules at the time made similar assumptions in their wording.) If the word "only" is missing (compare "when set by a rogue" to "only rogues can disable"), I would work under the assumption that it is not limited to rogues. --The Krit 23:23, November 23, 2011 (UTC) *I have now taken the time to go through all 48 standard Toolset traps. There were a lot less inconsistencies than I had expected, given previously I had managed to stumble upon the only two bugged non-epic traps when taking a small sampling. The six bugged traps are ::Average Tangle Trap: Detection 14 Disarm 16 s/b 26 ::Deadly Spike Trap: Detection 10 s/b 22 Disarm 22 s/b 36 ::Epic Frost Trap: Detection 10 s/b 43 Disarm 22 s/b 58 ::Epic Sonic Trap: Detection 10 s/b 43 Disarm 22 s/b 58 ::Epic Electric Trap: Detection 22 s/b 43 Disarm 36 s/b 58 ::Epic Fire Trap: Detection 22 s/b 43 Disarm 36 s/b 58 :WhiZard 02:30, November 1, 2011 (UTC) :* Thanks for the effort, WhiZard. A very helpful list. It means that a designer can just place all the default traps/triggers and only need to modify those in the short list to match the 2da. You must have radar working when you stumble. ;) :: One final question (I hope)... would the purchased and crafted kits "automatically" institute the appropriate 2da DCs when set? I don't know how to even check them except by setting each one and then attempting to detect/disarm with another PC and checking the log (unless you have an idea how to shortcut that procedure). The blueprints are different (naturally) and the kit properties do not indicate anything about the DCs. I have searched for the script which controls the SET action without success (if a script even exists that does this).--Iconclast 13:33, November 1, 2011 (UTC) ::* The purpose of the .2da values is to tell the game what DCs to use when a trap kit is used (since the kits themselves have no way to store that info). It does not matter how the trap kit was acquired -- buying, crafting, and recovering should all produce identical kits (well, assuming they are the same type & strength), with no memory of their origin. ::: Setting a trap with a trap kit does not involve a script. (In fact, trap kits could be used long before it was possible to create a trap via scripting.) --The Krit 15:24, November 1, 2011 (UTC) :* Looking over that list again, it looks like the average tangle DC might be a typo ('1' instead of '2'), while the others could by copy-and-paste errors (they are the same DC as the next weaker trap of those types). Yeah, probably bugs, but we did not locate them in time to report to BioWare. :( --The Krit 23:23, November 23, 2011 (UTC) Negative DCs The bug that effects highly-elevated DCs on some spells appears to also affect those on trap DCs. A MP test just run shows that an epic trap set by a PC with an 85 Set Trap skill level was attempted to be disarmed by another (rogue 40) character with a Disable Trap skill of 84. The Take 20 results a skill check of 104 vs. the trap's DC which should have been reported as 143 (58 + 85). Consistent with the DC bug, the actual log showed 104 skill vs. DC 15. However, it was still a critical failure so apparently even though the log report is in error, the actual calculation (and final result) is accurate. At least in the case of high trap DCs, the bug seems to only impact the log report, not the actual game calculation of the skill check. Has a fix for this been made available?--Iconclast 14:11, November 15, 2011 (UTC) * Looking at it and comparing script return values this impacts all skills and saving throws. The skills all report correctly to the character the failure/success (even though the DC only reports the last 7 bits), the saving throws, however, report to the player the 7bit outcome while what is reported to the script uses considerably more bits (I only checked up to 9 bits). So the DC that is actually used by the script can well exceed the reported value. So negative strength PDK fear is actually DC 255 (though 127 is what is reported). WhiZard 18:25, November 15, 2011 (UTC) * Disarming traps is hardcoded. So no fix from the community unless someone were to supply a tool to be used instead of the standard radial menu options. (Which seems like overkill to just fix a display error in an extreme case.) --The Krit 19:03, November 15, 2011 (UTC)